[Moon-net] QRS

Russ K2TXB k2txb at dxcc.com
Mon Nov 3 14:29:11 CET 2008

Thanks for your comments Sergio. It seems you mostly agree with me, sending
slow is mostly good when signals are very weak.  I think that is what I said
too.  But I do have one more point that perhaps I did not make clearly
before.  In a contest when conditions are usually good, and again talking
about 23 cm, the faster speeds work well for most contacts.  If one gets a
call from a very weak station, or calls one who is sending very slow, then
it is surely a good idea to slow down.  And if signals are weak it is much
better to use O/RO reports than to try to stay with RST.

Another thing; in contest when signals are good why make the exchanges so
long?  Sending calls at either the beginning or the end on a transmission is
usually sufficient and depending on conditions use a 2x2 or a 1x1 call set
instead of the more usual 3x3 or greater.  If signals are very good then
suspend calls entirely (except at start and sign off).  "RRR RRR GM GM 579
579 579 BK" will often suffice and allows both stations to finish more
quickly and see who else is on the band.

In schedules and out of the contest it becomes a whole different story.
Then there is no need for hurry, slow speed and timed transmissions are
useful and appropriate much of the time.

73, Russ K2TXB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bergonti, Sergio [mailto:Sergio.Bergonti at lamresearch.com] 
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 5:05 AM
> To: Russ K2TXB; moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net
> Subject: RE: [Moon-net] QRS
> Sorry to the audience to bring up this subject again, but I 
> do not agree at all about the provided explanations. I think 
> the subject requires more thinking. Some bullets for thoughts:
> 1. The operation frequency must be taken in consideration; I 
> have main experience on 1296 so I am referring mainly to this 
> freq. Other freqs may have different behaviors thus operating 
> practices/requirements.
> 2. 1296 has a well known libration fading + atmosphere 
> fading. With many years of operation with a small antenna, I 
> come up with a personal experience that tells me that the qsb 
> has a certain 'pace'.
> Transmitting at the qsb pace (some are masters at that) 
> results in a very degraded signal that it is very 
> difficult/impossible at times to understand.  Additionally 
> some callsigns are real 'killers', those with many dots and 
> other long letters into it, you know what I mean.  It is true 
> that sometimes is better to go faster than the qsb pace but 
> the signal MUST have an acceptable level.
> 3. Operating with very low signal levels (remember small 
> antennas) it is sometimes INDISPENSABLE to go qrs.  It is 
> scientific fact that, if the signal intensity goes down the 
> 'bit rate' has to be lowered. Okay this is perhaps hardly 
> applicable to manual CW but, if I have to operate with a 20Hz 
> wide filter due to such a low signal, with an heavy libration 
> fading, with an almost threshold limit signal, I can assure 
> that I will perhaps hear the signal but understand NOTHING if 
> one keys 'faster'.
> Much better to key at 5-8 WPM in that case, and also have a 
> LOT of patience; yes it is going to be boring-cw but there's 
> going to be a qso as a result. I do agree that a qso at 
> 40+WPM with HB9SV or K5JL (to give some callsigns) it is very 
> nice but it cannot represent the standard.
> 4. Sometimes some station thinks: 'if I hear him well he will 
> hear me well'.
> Not true at all. There is a number of reasons to that, true 
> power to the feed to name one, E layer condx etc. Maybe even 
> CW skills but who cares, the aim is TO HAVE A QSO.  
> Practically speaking there is even no reasons to go that fast 
> since 200+ qso per hour like on SW are out of discussion on EME. 
> Therefore: if the signal is low try to slow down. At least 
> give it a try!
> 73s Sergio IK2MMB
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net
> [mailto:moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net] On Behalf Of Russ K2TXB
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:17 PM
> To: moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net
> Subject: Re: [Moon-net] QRS
> I agree about sending faster to combat QSB.  There were 
> several times during the contest that I wished the other 
> station would send faster because his call always seemed to 
> drop out during the last 3 letters.  Other times libration 
> fading would break up the individual code elements and make 
> good copy very difficult.  I know we are not all good at high 
> speeds, but most operators would find that they can copy 
> better than they think, for contest where not much data is 
> exchanged.  In fact I think the only time very slow speed is 
> useful is when signals are very weak and conditions are fairly stable.
> Another problem is the code sending software.  We were using 
> a program called CwType (by UA9OV) and it worked very well.  
> The only problem was that the default code speed seems to be 
> 100 lpm.  Every time we stopped the program and then 
> restarted it, it would reset itself to 100 lpm.  I spent a 
> couple minutes looking through all the setup menus and could 
> find no way to set the default speed.
> Every time we wanted to run WSJT, the CW program had to be 
> shut down to eliminate the conflict on the serial port used 
> for PTT control.  Thus we were often getting set back to 100 
> lpm.  It took us a while to realize what was happening, 
> probably because all our ops were comfortable at that speed.
> Perhaps the author of that program can offer a way to avoid 
> the problem.
> 73, Russ K2TXB
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net
> > [mailto:moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net] On Behalf Of 
> D.W. Harms 
> > (fixed service)
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 4:31 PM
> > To: 'Andreas Haefner'; moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net
> > Subject: Re: [Moon-net] QRS
> > 
> > Andreas, during my last activity at PI9CAM I noticed that most 
> > stations transmit CW at only 12-15 wpm.
> > I personaly like making QRQ contacts (of course mainly on
> > HF...) at 40 wpm and up, so I was really grinding my teeth at some 
> > QSO's hihi!
> > But, a good CW-operator always adapts his speed to the one on the 
> > other side so I did what I had to do of course. SD3F was a welcome 
> > difference, tack se mucke Kalle!
> > 
> > Although many of us regard QRS better, when the signals are 
> very weak, 
> > I remember the comment of LZ2US when I once called him on 2m EME at 
> > slow speed. Marko said that it was better to send faster 
> when QSB is 
> > severe and the signals are weak. Thus taking the oppertunity at the 
> > moment the signal is slightly elevated, to copy what you need. Just 
> > some food for thought.
> > Marko, by the way, we still have to make that QSO....
> > 
> > Best 73, Dick PA2DW
> > 
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net
> > [mailto:moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net] Namens 
> Andreas Haefner
> > Verzonden: dinsdag 28 oktober 2008 19:05
> > Aan: moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net
> > Onderwerp: [Moon-net] QRS
> > 
> > Here is a short feedback from several stations after arrl contest.
> > 
> > PSE QRS !
> > 
> > A lot of om's had problems with the cw speed. And this problem 
> > increased with the number of hours without sleep.
> > 
> > So to all the high speed stations: please think about this at a 
> > problem for a lot of stations that are not so familiar with cw. 100 
> > lpm is fast for a lot of people !
> > 
> > Perhaps formular could be:
> > 
> > CW Speed for contest = (cw speed (lpm)/ hours without sleep) + 40   
> > 
> > Thanks for a not 100 % serious but constructive discussion for the 
> > second part and gl in november
> > 
> > 73s and good dx
> > 
> > Andreas DJ3JJ JN48js
> > --
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